Grow: How Glenn Loury grew a community of 20% paying subscribers through consistency and a clear scope
This is the continuation of our Grow interview series, designed to share the nuts and bolts of how writers have gone independent and grown their audiences on Substack.
We invited writer, academic, and podcaster Glenn Loury, who writes an eponymous newsletter, Glenn Loury, to share his insights on how he started making a living from Substack, expanding his community into thousands of paying subscribers. He shares his journey of migrating from other platforms, creating a consistent content strategy, developing a unique voice in a key ideological space, and continuous creative experimentation.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
What’s your Substack about in one sentence?
My beat is race and inequality in the U.S., and I primarily cover it in conversations with other public intellectuals, most notably my bi-weekly co-host John McWhorter of Columbia University.
What do you offer readers and listeners?
In terms of value, my subscribers will find intelligent commentary on current events, rooted in decades of experience as an economist and public intellectual; sustained critique of the woke movement, which I see as dangerous to human civilization and bad for the soul; an example of civilized debate and conversation, strengthened by an ability to articulate not only my own position but also that of my interlocutors; and sense of community, through Q&As, exchanges in the comments section, and Mailbag issues of the newsletter.
And in terms of content, I publish a weekly podcast, in video and audio form with video excerpts with transcripts, I share original writing and audio monologues, occasional guest posts, public email exchanges with and between audience members, and monthly Q&As with John McWhorter and me, available to paying subscribers. I shoot for continuous creative experimentation.
I’ve been expanding the range of topics and formats I cover since coming to Substack. In addition to posts on race and inequality, I've been publishing autobiographical essays (The Double Life), math puzzles (Beautiful Ideas) and speculations about the coming AI dystopia (AI News from China).
Through subscribing to my newsletter, I also offer an opportunity to do some good: we donate 10% of our proceeds to worthy grassroots causes through the Woodson Center.
I aim to offer a broad mix of entertaining and illuminating content.
Growth by numbers
Started Substack: January 2021
Offered paid subscriptions: June 2021
Total subscribers: 19,000
Paid subscribers: 3,500
Why did you decide to go paid?
I had been monetizing the podcast through Patreon since the fall of 2020. Making the show profitable allowed me to invest in better recording equipment and hire a small staff and, secondly, feel more secure in my professional future. If, for whatever reason, the institutions I’m affiliated with stop paying me, I’ll still be able to make a living. Lessening my financial dependence on those institutions ensures that I can speak my mind without worrying that I’ll lose my livelihood.
Financially, I was doing just fine on Patreon. But it isn’t as well suited as Substack to publishing writing and engaging with the audience in the comments. Plus, with the newsletter growing, it made organizational sense to consolidate all of my content.
Lessening my financial dependence on those institutions ensures that I can speak my mind without worrying that I’ll lose my livelihood.
What’s your content strategy?
The backbone of my newsletter is the podcast. I started back in 2007. I record a new episode every week (every other week is with John McWhorter), which goes out to paying subscribers on Mondays and to the general audience on Fridays. In between these days, we publish video excerpts with transcripts.
I publish original posts twice a week. Wednesdays and Sundays are days when I publish original writing or audio monologues, letters from readers, various creative experiments I do with my team, guest posts by other intellectuals, and whatever else I decide to do in a given week.
I share clips from the podcast on YouTube. The video dimension is important because YouTube brings in new viewers through its suggestion algorithms. I launched my own channel in October 2021 and now have more than 30K subscribers; we post clips from the week’s episode there on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We also produce three shorter clips from each episode, which I publish on Twitter. In the past couple of weeks, we started experimenting with TikTok and YouTube Shorts.
What made you launch your podcast on Substack?
I had been publishing the podcast through Bloggingheads.tv and migrated to Substack after the newsletter had already become a success—this made sense organizationally, gave me more ownership of the feed, and allowed me to save money on hosting costs.
The crucial feature of podcasting on Substack is the ability to publish episodes for paying subscribers only (in my case, I release them to the rest of the audience five days later).
What’s the sharpest insight you can offer other writers about growing on Substack?
There’s not a one-size-fits-all solution, but this is what has been working for me:
I maintain a consistent schedule and have a clear model of growth. Subscriber benefits are very straightforward: early access to new episodes every week, a monthly Q&A, and occasional subscriber-only posts.
The content itself is not something you can find elsewhere. There just aren’t many high-profile black academics who occupy my ideological space, have my range of experience, and, frankly, have my ability to speak compellingly and extemporaneously.
I am on a mission—John and I jokingly call ourselves “Wokebusters”—and, to my listeners, supporting my work means helping this mission along.
I think of my readers and listeners as not just an audience but a community. They know I read their comments and reply when I can. They write me letters, and I publish some of them in the newsletter. They can ask John and me questions to be addressed on video. They also let me know when they think something isn’t working, which is just as valuable as praise. A portion of the money they pay goes to help grassroots causes around the country, and I know many of them feel good about that.
I also think the fact that the newsletter is constantly evolving, that we’re trying new things, must be a factor. It’s more exciting to support somebody who’s getting better and gaining momentum than somebody who’s stuck in their ways. We’ve got a good baseline strategy that ensures everybody gets what they paid for, and that gives us leeway to play around and see what the format is capable of.
I think of my readers and listeners as not just an audience but a community. They know I read their comments and reply when I can. They write me letters, and I publish some of them in the newsletter. They can ask John and me questions to be addressed on video. They also let me know when they think something isn’t working, which is just as valuable as praise.
What advice have you received about growing your publication that didn’t prove to be helpful?
I can’t think of one. What I’ve mostly heard is “Keep doing what you’re doing.” That said, I’ve been doing what I’m doing for a while now, and it will probably take less experienced writers a little bit of time to find their footing.
What has been a meaningful moment for the growth of your publication?
There wasn’t a single pivotal moment—I’ve had a sustained growth throughout the newsletter’s history—but local spikes do happen every now and again.
The most recent one—65 new paying subscribers in two days—was triggered by a publication of the video of a live TGS event we did at New York’s Comedy Cellar.
An earlier one happened when I published an autobiographical audio essay titled “The Double Life.” It comes to mind not so much because of the growth in numbers, but because of the incredibly positive feedback it received and the encouragement I got from it—which gave me inspiration to continue in the same vein (Call of the Tribe).
Both of these were experiments, both were successful, and I have plans for developing both of these directions further.
Top three takeaways
Be consistent with your output.
Get gradually better at what you do.
Make it interesting and meaningful for yourself—if you find an audience, it’ll be interesting and meaningful for them as well.
Who’s another Substack writer you’d recommend?
My creative director Nikita Petrov publishes a very imaginative illustrated newsletter called Psychopolitica. (I’ve been featured in two issues: Nightmare Journal, about the first days of the war in Ukraine and Nikita’s escape from Russia, and Glenn Loury Is Having a Terrible Thought, about the recent news of AI developments in China.)
What questions do you have for Glenn that we didn’t ask? Leave them in the comments!
To read more from this series on growing your publication, see our interviews with Erik Hoel, Jessica DeFino, Mike Sowden, Elizabeth Held, Jonathan Nunn, Polina Pompliano, Michael Williams, Judd Legum, and Caroline Chambers.
You're showing how someone who already had an audience and following, just grew it bigger. Of course, that is consistency and making content. How about a future topic about when you want to start something from absolute zero follows, with no current project or existing audience, social media following or community to draw initial listeners from? Most people start from nothing and have no idea how to get off the ground.
Thanks for the feedback, and we certainly take this on board (so really appreciate your sharing it). To my mind, we have quite a few Grow interviews showing the "from scratch" approach, whereas Glenn had some migration from another platform plus some super interesting insights around finding your niche and building community around what you do, which is an interesting approach many others are keen to understand. There was still a "zero" moment for sure. How else would you like to see featured here?
Thank you. I just joined the platform, so this was the first email I received on topics like this. I haven't had a chance to really look around yet. I would like to see a case study where someone has an interest in something, and wants to start a substack podcast about it.
I would like to see a case where they do not currently have a mailing list, a social media following, no job that exposes them to large crowds or audiences, and no collaborations, meaning, for example, they dont co-host a podcast with someone, and now are breaking out on their own or teach at a college where they have students to pitch to.
I would like to see an absolute nobody, start from absolute zero, with nothing more than an idea, and build a substack account that provides a sufficient following and income. I would like to see the step by step, from day one at step zero, and all the steps up until success.
Exactly where I'm at today. I'm a nobody Hopefully I'll reach just one person, An income for writing? Well, that would be a gift!
You’re right. I think there are no easy answers, but cultivating an active community to pull insights from experience is a huge first step. Thank you. I have to say I was on the verge of going back to my word processor and making poems for my filing cabinet as I’ve done for a lifetime before Substack appeared on my radar. I’m thankful for this opportunity and hopeful. I’d really like to write poems for free and offer paid subscribers help and support with their writing. I have time now to do this.
Hopefully one day that’ll be me. I had nothing starting out last year and am steadily growing. Consistency and quality are key but finding and sustaining that audience is tough. Also, he has the benefit of being a scholar and talks about current events. I’m in fiction.
I guess the key is showing up and leveling up. Dress up your Substack even for the 10 people coming.
Yes. Someone who has been podcasting since 2007 is well placed to discuss how to sustain it but not to gain it. E.g., showing readers that you read their comments by responding to them presupposes readers ARE responding with substantive comments.
No matter where I go for advice on growing an audience, consistency is at the top of the list. Quality follows.
Substack please ask the open rates during the grow series. It will really help us out, especially if a substack has over 10k subscribers.
This is a cool idea, we'll be sure to ask in the next interview, thanks for the feedback too!
Thank you so much. It will help us gauge as we all grow our individual Substacks.
40 to 60% for Glenn.
Thanks for sharing that Nikita! Is that what you expected YouTopian?
One thing I've recognized as a common thread in this series is that growing Substack means leveraging other outlets that have similar communities. It doesn't have to be social media. I'm hearing podcasts, interviews, videos, forums, collaborations -- there is a lot of opportunity to extend a voice elsewhere and bring it back here. In my experience when you can tap into a market of readers that are not also writers is when you find your greatest growth. Writers tend to hang with writers, artists with artists, musicians with musicians, etc., but when you can reach a group who share a love of what you do without doing it themselves they become the biggest fans.
I have never seen a term or ideal as hijacked as “woke”. Wow. What exactly is the woke movement? It used to be a meme wrapped in kente.
I hear you. I just hope I’m woke. If the sleep walking I see among the unwoke is my alternative, please let me be woke. We are on the cusp of a world war because the sleep walkers are having nightmares and are angry. This is why we need to write for our readers no matter how many. Keep ourselves awake.
Agreed. I really think there have been layers applied to this that needn’t exist. Having awareness of others, their struggles, and my potential contribution is a good thing. Trigger warnings are used on every television show, so that’s not a bad thing either. I’m just going to do my thing, and if that looks “woke”, then... thanks?
i love the takeaway: Make it interesting and meaningful for yourself—if you find an audience, it’ll be interesting and meaningful for them as well.
i wrote my historical novel for myself, and began blogging about related things that interested me. i have no real expectation that anyone else will want to read it, but i hope that IF anyone does, they're meant to be there. that makes my work easier and more enjoyable.
and glen loury always has an interesting perspective to consider. looking forward to checking out his substack!
J.M., bottom line--you are right. If it’s not meaningful for the writer, it stands no chance with a reader. As a writing teacher in classrooms for many years, however, I might argue that audience is a key element in becoming and improving as a writer. I invite you to think a bit about the space between a diary and an invited publication or address. As you move along that space the act of writing changes. Writing for an audience doesn’t entail pandering or compromising. Dress it up for Substack and take a real shot. If you’ve written a historical novel you’ve got the key ingredient: discipline, which is really what consistency is about.
what role would you say audience plays in becoming and improving as a writer?
A critical role. Look at traditional writing instruction in public schools, which has created a citizenry that fears writing. Once you pass second grade, writing instruction becomes about paragraphs and essays--forms, not substance. Check out the historical impact of Alexander Bain, 19th century textbook writer, on single handedly changing Enlightenment writing into a machine, sidestepping ideas, intentions, content, aesthetics, language, nuance. Writers shape texts based on what the text is designed to do for or to whom. Texts of all denominations construct/invite readers/audiences. To write in a vacuum is to forego contact with and response from readers--contact essential for growth and improvement. You should check out my Substack place Shakespeare’s Monkey and take a look at the benefits of subscribing I offer my readers--free for now.
I think you are a writer, J.M. You wrote a novel. Have you read Water Music by Boyle? He writes historical novels. My favorite is either the Road to Wellville, Riven Rock, or The Women. I had a writing mentor long ago. You could benefit from finding a mentor (couldn’t we all!). Mentors don’t have to be heroes, but they have to be experienced with writing, knowledgeable, honest, and they have to hold you accountable to your intentions. They have to have the time to do it so fate is important.
i take your point about writing instruction making writing into a formulaic chore rather than a creative outlet. always a bit of a lone wolf and an autodidact, whether its learning to paint portraits, operate a backhoe, or set my own dislocated shoulder, i've usually had to learn things for myself. writing has been no different. when i write creatively, it's like when i paint--i want to solidify a representation of something i see. how others react is just what _they_ see. it's not designed to do anything for or to anyone. and i write professionally, just not fiction. i do this for fun. i've never read anything by boyle, but i'll look into it, thanks.
Ah. I see what you’re talking about. If your goal is to solidify a representation of something you see, you don’t need an audience. The act of writing or painting is clarifying and fun in itself. Go for it J.M. Getting comments from a reader or viewer probably won’t help you improve. I thought you were talking about writing as public discourse where the goal is to share a representation held in one’s mind with another mind. In such cases writing is designed to convey substance or evoke responses. Trying out particular writing strategies and then finding out if they were effective provides grist for reflection on writing processes and decisions.
i like the idea of a novel a public discourse, but by its nature it is decidedly one way discourse. it is a letter without a return address. once written, the dialogue on the author's part is over and the dialogue on the reader's part begins. i'm certainly open to that conversation and critique of my work. i'm not open to having readers redesign my work to their liking. there seems to be a lot of that happening in the literary world these days, where audiences feel they have veto power over the aesthetic choices of artists. i prefer to make my own choices and i'd rather fail on my own terms than 'succeed' on someone else's.
I agree. Readers should indeed cannot veto or make choices for a writer. But writers have to make choices that involve the reader. Would you like to write a historical novel for an audience of adolescents (Johnny Tremaine) or for adults (the Women)? Writers design their texts (note well: they don’t redesign their texts) for a readership so that it works as an expression, is comprehensible, provides sufficient background, etc.). Writers and readers collaborate. Once again, writing in a vacuum, if it’s your goal, is fine. If you want to have readers (collaborative readers who will work to understand the world you are expressing) you need to write with them in mind (imagine an audience) and design away. Throw the ball and watch to see if they catch it. Play catch with yourself if that’s what you want. Redesign occurs during the next throw. You get better as you learn to throw a ball someone can catch. You do want to make and do things as a lone wolf. Don’t expect a huge readership. This discussion is about how to grow a readership, not how to sell your soul for a few pesos.
i don't disagree. but when i sat down to write my novel (trilogy, actually) i imagined _myself_ as the audience. i wanted to write a book that i would want to read. my subject, themes, and setting already restrict my readership. my former agent warned me of that. (my series is set in the 5th c. BCE pontic steppe, aka ukraine, and explores an incident in herodotus from the barbarian and female perspective--not exactly mass market stuff). i simply wanted to write something i couldn't find on shelves but that i would have liked to read. i'm curious to see if others feel the same way. if they don't, that's fine too. i don't begrudge anyone their preferences. i hope people will give it a chance, but if it's not for them, that's cool. plenty of stuff just isn't for me either.
J.M., I knew there was more to the story:) I’ve written four novels myself over forty years and no one has ever read a word from them. They suck. Even I can’t read them. I do have some poems that I wrote years ago I dearly love and am thankful for. I’ve shared them over the years. My publishing has been in the world of academics, primarily literacy issues, with several book chapters, research articles, and two books. We are always limited by subject, theme, genre, syntax, etc., but we still face the work of crafting a text that constructs and makes space for the reader we hope to invite into a transaction in Louise Rosenblatt’s sense. If I view my work as building a place in the text for myself, it stands to reason few others will cross its threshold. Henry James’s imperative comes to mind: I cannot tamper with your flute (historical novel set long ago), and then criticize your music. Your agent was messing with your flute.
Loury has been an original and fearless thinker for a while and really glad to see Substack delivering on its promise of enabling truly diverse voices. His remarks on how to be successful are true enough but the biggest factor for his success is his fearless and well reasoned content in the unfortunate intolerant climate we find ourselves in. It’s also remarkable as he points out that thinkers like him could easily be shut down and driven out from their current, traditional channels which are also their primary means of livelihood. That is a sad commentary on our intolerant culture but also a statement for why we absolutely need Substack both as a forum for free expression and also as a means to support free voices (monetarily). Kudos to Loury and Substack.
Thank you for your feedback Reena!
Off topic I know but being found is one of the hardest things when you are starting out. So, I wish Substack would add more categories. I struggled to find a category to fit my newsletter. I teach creative writing for absolute beginners and in the end went with 'How To' and 'Fiction' as there wasn't anything else. I'm starting another newsletter which is crime fiction and articles in a few weeks and I already know it will be hard to categorize.
Thanks Sandie! Feel free to join tomorrow's Office Hour thread and share this too—it's a great place to air questions and feedback, and I know quite a few other writers have struggled to find the right category to fit them and have some good ideas around it. Hope to see you there!
A couple things I have found that help with being “found”: 1) make thoughtful comments on posts for more popular Substacks that have a similar audience to your target. I just do this anyway, not as a strategy, but it has lead many readers my way. 2) the Recommendation feature had brought me the most recent 10% of my subscriptions (of course, I am small time!!!!)
That's great to hear about recommendations! A lot of other writers are finding this too so we hope more will adopt and try out this feature!
I’d say do it as a strategy. That’s where readers will come from I believe. All writers need serious, substantive feedback, pushing and pulling thinking. Being part of the process... Donald Graves taught us decades ago that making contact with an audience is critical for writers. Without comments it’s like playing baseball with just one team. Comments come from audience.
Thank you, I will open my comment section up too as I haven't yet.
Thank you for the suggestions.
Sandie’s comment needs to be kicked upstairs at Substack. There are two urgent opportunities to strengthen Substack affordances for writers, one small, one big. Sandie nailed the big one. Categories. When you name a category, you create boundaries that define what is possible. The “writing instruction” category should be real and viable. I saw a cool stack that provides readers with a prompt for writing poetry, one per week. What a beautiful idea. Can you imagine the potential for community? For Substack community means reader engagement.
I think the search category is of huge importance as both a reader and a contributor. When I first joined Substack as a reader I struggled to find the sort of content I was interested in.
Good feedback thanks!
Amen. The categories in the 'Discover' menu don't lead anywhere. It's possible to search for a word, but that's not the same as a well-linked set of tags or labels.
Thank you for sharing this. I think Loury has alot of great ideas and thoughts. When I read "wokebusters" I signed up for a year. I would not have realized he was on Substack without this series.
Glad to have helped you discover Glenn's work here Maura!
Fascinating, I will check it out..
Useful info..
I want to write on Substack. I'm vision-impaired; it's a struggle to write, but I can. I'm elderly and don't know how or even wish to learn the process of business. Substack would grow massively by offering people like me a COMPLETE SETUP template that makes the entire process sleek and streamlined, so all I do is write, hit the button to publish
He's a first.
inequality for you or children
thanks, professor glenn! do you enjoy being one of the only black voices inyour ideological space? or do you wish to expand the number of black voices in your ideological space exponentially?
Thank you for sharing this. I like the keeping it consistent and improving from there advice. All the best
Thanks for the words of wisdom and encouragement. I’ve copy-pasted the three takeaway points, with a note to self: There will be days when you wanna quit. Remember these on those days.
Consistency is huge. If you're going to respond to comments at all, don't give the impression that you're talking only with your existing circle of friends. Outsiders have money, and outsiders are ready to pay for value .... until they get the feeling of being an outsider. At that moment the desire to pay stops.
Wonderful insight and absolutely inspiring. Even though he has a wealth of experience, his consistency I believe played a key part in his growth even before Substack. His genre is also quite an emotional, sensitive and provocative one. That has certainly given me food for thought for my newsletter and to talk about food and racism...
Glenn, thanks for your thoughts. I started Messy Times podcast as a passion project in the doldrums of the Wuhan Hysteria Freakout and it's continued to grow because similarly to your approach, I am providing unique interviews, book reviews and essays that others find engaging.
How did he find his subscribers who are willing to pay
Glenn had been podcasting for a long time, and there was no way for the audience to support the show. When we launched a Patreon account in 2020, we got $10k in monthly subscriptions the first month. Then we just grew from there.
Your subject is of great interest to me. I'm not a writer, exactly, I"m a painter. I joined substack, but I'm not interested yet because I don't understand the social aspect. I'd like to contact you about your subject, which is also my passion to have real education started in the US. You can find me online as SuzanneCerny.
I’ve been someone who appreciates Glen’s work for a while and it’s been really interesting to hear his insights. He and John often get into philosophical arguments/debates that help me think differently about my own writing some times.
Thomas Sowell, Thomas Sowell, Thomas Sowell. Read everything this American genius and national treasure has written. There is no excuse for you to continue being an uneducated fool. You have one life to live and you are wasting it making comments like this. I say that to you with the best of intentions.
Oh dear. You seem upset. I'm now living rent free under your skin. Mission accomplished. Have a nice day.
It's too bad you cannot accept an opposing black voice as anything than just pandering.
It’s not making assumptions if we are sitting here reading it. Stay in your lane indeed. If I had a nickel for every time I heard that phrase. According to McWhorter, and I disagree with this, your little BLM sign off is genuflecting. Actually genuflecting is a perfectly serious form of obedient submission to a higher power that the Catholic faith practices to this day. BLM uses crowd funding to buy mansions.