“This is something I feel like I can’t talk about on TikTok”

Violet Witchel

and

Coco Mocoe

are two creators who transformed their followings on TikTok into sustainable subscription businesses on Substack—Violet by sharing exclusive, paywalled recipes and meal plans with her audience, and Coco by launching a video podcast about the creator economy alongside a budding media company. With a potential TikTok ban looming in the U.S., they went live in the Substack app to discuss who the ban will hurt, what the next viral video app might look like, and how Substack is changing the game. We’re sharing a few clips from their conversation in this post.

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On who a TikTok ban would hurt

Coco Mocoe

: For me, I have the biggest platform on TikTok, but I’ll be okay if it’s gone. But I always say when people are like, “Hell yeah, I hate TikTok, blah blah blah,” the first people I think of are the 7,000 U.S.-based TikTok employees. I just don’t want anyone to lose their job. And if TikTok gets banned, they’re not going to have a job. That’s always who I’m rooting for, why [I hope] it doesn’t get banned.

Violet Witchel

: And, like, every small business that TikTok promotes and drives sales for. [And] what will Amazon do? Do you know how much money Amazon makes on storefronts just from TikTok? No [chance] that their lobbyists aren’t barking up Trump’s tree right now.

On content moderation

Violet Witchel

: I’ve gotten the weirdest community guideline [violations on TikTok]. Like we were gonna go to Egypt for our honeymoon, and I said the word “Egypt” on a livestream, and it completely shut down the live. I was like, whoa, what is this? And it was [for] terrorism speech! I was like, are you serious? This is actually crazy.

On what the next TikTok will look like

Coco Mocoe

: Who’s going to replace TikTok? I think it’s not necessarily gonna be about the algorithm. It’s not about who will replace TikTok in terms of short-form media, like a quick 30-second video. It is going to be the app that makes it easiest to film and edit and post a video in five minutes or less. If you’ve ever tried making an Instagram reel, a YouTube short on the app…

Violet Witchel

: Horrible!

Coco Mocoe

: Yes! I was at one of those big media platforms earlier this year and they wanted us to post a short-form video. And I was talking to one of the employees, and I’m like, “Hey, how do I just make the text on screen disappear after like three seconds?” And they’re like, “Oh, we don’t have that feature yet. But honestly, just go over to TikTok, screen record it, and then post it here.”

And I think the app that replaces TikTok if it gets banned—and who knows now, with Trump loving it and stuff—but the app that replaces TikTok isn’t going to be the best algorithm, isn’t going to be the best whatever. It’s going to be the one that makes it easiest to edit and post.

On TikTok competitors, and turning to Substack for reputable, high-quality content

Coco Mocoe

: [Competing video apps] Lemonade and Clapper are too similar to TikTok. They’re not disruptive enough. Every platform that comes around that’s disruptive is what ends up being the future. So I sometimes see that with Substack—because a lot of people that I talk to are like, “Why would anyone pay for creators’ videos?”—but that pushback is telling me there’s something there.

Violet Witchel

: And the amount of people that have come over already and are like, “Oh, this is so refreshing and different.” It’s almost closer to Apple News for me than it is to anything else, because this is where I get my news from. It’s where I get reputable, high-quality content that’s like—and not that I read real news, but I’m like, I need to hear about, like, Sabrina Carpenter. I want to hear about [Prince] Harry and Meghan [Markle]. Like, I subscribe to the New York Times for recipes, and I’m using Substack instead now. It’s very different from TikTok.

On finding a reliable income stream on Substack

Coco Mocoe

: So what made you go from Instagram to Substack? Because you’re really big on Instagram. So what was the deciding factor for you?

Violet Witchel

: Oh my god. This is something I feel like I can’t talk about on TikTok for some reason. But the whole agency dynamic of social media is wild.

So, I was signed with an agency and I had left for … reasons. I felt like I didn’t really own any of my content, and I didn’t have any revenue that I could take for myself. Most agency contracts have something called a “sunset clause,” where if you work with a brand while you’re signed with this agency, they get to take a cut of that brand deal for a certain period of time, even after you’re not working with them [anymore].

So I had a six-month sunset clause, and I was like, I need something that I own in full, that’s my content. If I don’t have an agency, if TikTok goes away, if something happens, I own it. You know? And I have a recurring revenue stream.

And the way brand deals are, there will be months where you make six months’ worth of income. There’ll be weeks where you make six months’ worth of income! And then there will be three months where you don’t make a penny. And the idea of like, raising a family, or owning a house, or trying to live a life—like, you can’t plan for anything. There’s no reliability. It’s just really, really hard. I’m not saying it’s not good money, but who knows how long it’s gonna last?

And Substack fixed all of that in one app. It’s insane.

Ed.: This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.